Curse

Xenomortis · Jun 02, 2009, 08:54 PM // 20:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ratson Itamar

We're in the Necromancer forums, are we not?
I'm not going to break down every post you make to hundred parts and take it out of context like you and others seem to do in this thread, but I will say this; I'm out until the atmosphere clears, have fun.

Well if you're running a Discord team on a necro primary it means you're not running a MoP nuker build. That means you lose out on a lot of AoE (and single target) damage.
Do not say that you can run MoP on a discord primer. You can run it, but it will never be as effective as it is on a nuker build with a more suitable team.
I'm not saying you should run an AP-MoP build, but I'll explain why I believe it to be superior.

Comparing single target DPS on my H/H setup (Me running a AP-MoP caller, 2 Paras and a MB with a spear along with 2 physical henchies and 2 monk henchies) with Discord:
Ignoring the damage from spears and the para's attack skills:
Assuming the three heroes attack as much as possible:
3 attacks every 1.5 seconds -> 6 attacks every 3 seconds
-> 6*16 (from barbs) = 96 damage -> 32 DPS.
This ignores the damage done from the 2 physical henchmen I bring along and the minions my necro hero will have - all of which will trigger Barbs.

The single target damage alone is comparable to Discord, except that I will also be using Mark of Pain, which works the same way, except it's AoE and that 16 is replaced with a 42.

2 Monk henchmen do well enough as the paras provide a decent amount of protection and support and I doubt 2 N/Rt heroes (or even 3) with a mediocre spec into Restoration will far exceed (or match) the support the henchmen provide.

Obviously it is not possible to run my preferred setup in a lot of Prophecies, but I can easily sub out one of the paras for an ER Ele hero and I only lose out a bit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perfected Shadow

Because when purely H/Hing I don't see how physical based teams would be good because ummm, melee hench AI sucks.

Since when are melee attackers the only sources of physical damage? Or do rangers and paragons not count? Obviously ranged attackers cannot be buffed with SoH, but OoV is certainly still an option and a physical based team can run a MoP nuker.

How much this post is relevant to what's being said, I am not certain on. Given the near incomprehensible nature of the last few posts though, I think it makes little difference.

AtomicMew · Jun 02, 2009, 10:42 PM // 22:42

I'm tldr the entire last page. I'm assuming it's cthon et al just re-writing the same flawed arguments that have been time and again debunked.

@ Xeno: You are just wrong saying that MoP does not work well with discordway.

That's part of the reason I think there is misunderstanding. Physical (curse) buffs /MoP nuker works great with discordway. In fact, I'm going to say it works even better.

With H/H I have up to 20 minions out. (Fiends are ranged and trigger MoP just like paragons.) With 2 man it's possible to have nearly 40 minions and can have 2-3 MoPs going at once. I can prime a target with MoP even before I call AP on it.

Sorry, there is just no way physway can compete, unless it takes 4 MMs... but then of course it's gimping it's physical output.

Perfected Shadow · Jun 03, 2009, 12:05 AM // 00:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Since when are melee attackers the only sources of physical damage? Or do rangers and paragons not count? Obviously ranged attackers cannot be buffed with SoH, but OoV is certainly still an option and a physical based team can run a MoP nuker.

I was talking about henchies. Consider Aidan, he has Kindle arrows in 3 campaigns. Yes there are better ranger henchies in Factions but only there. Paragon hench is only in NF. I'm not saying physway H/H won't work with everyone, but I've had too much experience of melee hench scratching their asses walking back and forth trying to decide whether to attack or not.

Quote:

AP-MoP caller, 2 Paras and a MB

Btw what is MB?

Hanging Man · Jun 03, 2009, 12:16 AM // 00:16

I love Discord it is my favorite way to vanq any area.
For awhile I struggled with Sabway but that was slow especially trying to get minions going and keep them up.

The reason I prefer Discord-way is because it requires no waiting charge in spam condition/hex of choice and watch enemies explode.

Improvavel · Jun 03, 2009, 12:18 AM // 00:18

Saying Discord can't spike is a joke.

Discord doesn't have good DPS but it certainly has good spike. 3 discords will do around 300 clean damage to a target. 2 seconds later they can add 300 more damage.

I would say 300 armor ignoring damage + whatever the rest of your team has, have a good chance of killing a target.

Buffing physicals will require the 3 hero slots - no henchmen are built to do that.

So, you end with an order necro and 2 other slots. The orders will provide decent hex and condition removal.

So you can add what? A healer?

So lets say we add an ER ele/mo. Powerful healing/protection for sure.

Last slot a paragon? An mm? A curses dude?

The para can have hex removal, condition removal, cruel or stunning spear.

The MM isn't running discord so what will it run? Jagged bones? Aura of the Lich? More hex removal on the elite slot?

The curses dude will run what? No elite? SS? IV?

If you can run the ER ele/mo as solo defensive character, you can take 4 physical henchmen.

So rangers, that have kindle arrows in loads of places (some good bha though); warriors that have charge as elite in most places or some use dragon slash but no other adrenal skill (exception of devona in eotn); the dervish and the para in NF, assassins that are meh in factions.

So you will either have 4 or 5 physicals (depending if your ER E/mo can operate alone or not, if you run some hybrid Mo it won't or if it does the discord team should be able to do it too), most of them if not all, with meh builds with very little dps on their own and probably no (or small) use to dark fury.

And for that you will either lose the MM or the curses necro?

Now, lets say you bring an orders, a MM and a curses necro.

Either you also slot hex and condition removal or your necros other than the orders or you will suffer while relying on the physicals for the damage.

You will also have to bring 2 monks henchmen, and if you want to pre-prot you will have to slot that protection on the MM or the curses.

And you are down to 3 physicals to take advantage of the orders.

If you bring a Mo hybrid as hero, you will again lose either the MM or the curses necro, although having 4 physicals.

Probably the best primary to use physical way is a primary necro, except melee AI is erratic - "AoE damage- RUN!!" and forget about target change - and their builds generally suffer.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Both Sabway and Discordway (and you don't have to use the pvx one) work because:

- Soul Reaping is fantastic in PvE;
- Curses are great and work well at low investment;
- Minions are pretty decent and trigger Soul Reaping;
- Ritualist heals are quite powerful and spammy;
- Protection skills work well at low investments;
- Henchmen builds are limited at best;
- Melee AI is crap.

When you upgrade from H/H to 2P+6H things change a bit because:
- You have access to Paragons and rangers (with proper builds);
- Even though the melee AI is crap, you can make their builds more powerful;
- It's easier to slot enough hex/condition/enchantment/block removal to counter physicals natural weakness;
- Back line builds offer more options.

So, while discord isn't the ubber skill for players its quite decent for AI given the limited options a single player going H/H has, deals decent spike damage even at 10/11 death, it can be slotted on heroes that will perform other functions that either aren't available to henchmen and are quite powerful (MM and curses) and don't require a specific elite or will just perform them better due to soul reaping (restoration necro).

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, if what you want to say is that 2p+6h some builds in some areas can work better, yes, it is true.

If what you want to say is that 6 or 8 discords are bad because it isn't the best damage and you will gimp overall team functions/builds to run 1 skill that, while having spike potential, as little else, then, yes, you are correct.

If what you want to say is that the pvx discorday sucks because it has 2 restoration necros, then, yes you are correct.

If what you want to say is that for H/H or even 2p+6h (in some areas) discord necros suck because the DPS of discord isn't that great, ignoring the limitations of henchmen and ignoring that the functions (healing, MMing, Cursing) those discord necros perform are quite powerful and that suffer little to nothing (MMs suffer nothing as they already invest heavily in death, curses work fine at 11+1+1/10+1/10+1 and resto at 12/9+1+1/9+1) because of the use of discord as elite and spending attribute points in death magic, then, you are wrong.

And please stop talking as if the only damage that a 3 necro discord does come from it or as if the only possible discord setup is that stupid pvx build.

AtomicMew · Jun 03, 2009, 12:30 AM // 00:30

Re: PvX 2-man discordway. Personally, I'd take more minions and superior rune on the MMs, but I don't see anything glaringly wrong with it, besides maybe lack of enchantment removal.

Why do you say that 2 resto necros are bad?

Improvavel · Jun 03, 2009, 12:56 AM // 00:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Re: PvX 2-man discordway. Personally, I'd take more minions and superior rune on the MMs, but I don't see anything glaringly wrong with it, besides maybe lack of enchantment removal.

Why do you say that 2 resto necros are bad?

On a H/H?

Waste of healing.

A curses necro will provide much more and will boost damage by minions/physical henchies/you if you are a physical and will allow you to not be worried how to get hexes and/or conditions to prime discord.

I always die a bit when I see a warrior/derv/assassin running AP caller.

If on the other hand you are a curses necro, I bet you can get something more creative than more healing (healing is only as good).

My discord necros are more of a variation of old sabs.

As for 2 players variant, you don't need that much defense. It is quite easy to slot some physical power/shutdown/interrupts with 4 other slots.

The Riven · Jun 03, 2009, 12:58 AM // 00:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Both Sabway and Discordway (and you don't have to use the pvx one) work because:

- Soul Reaping is fantastic in PvE;
- Curses are great and work well at low investment;
- Minions are pretty decent and trigger Soul Reaping;
- Ritualist heals are quite powerful and spammy;
- Protection skills work well at low investments;
- Henchmen builds are limited at best;
- Melee AI is crap.

When you upgrade from H/H to 2P+6H things change a bit because:
- You have access to Paragons and rangers (with proper builds);
- Even though the melee AI is crap, you can make their builds more powerful;
- It's easier to slot enough hex/condition/enchantment/block removal to counter physicals natural weakness;
- Back line builds offer more options.

So, while discord isn't the ubber skill for players its quite decent for AI given the limited options a single player going H/H has, deals decent spike damage even at 10/11 death, it can be slotted on heroes that will perform other functions that either aren't available to henchmen and are quite powerful (MM and curses) and don't require a specific elite or will just perform them better due to soul reaping (restoration necro).

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, if what you want to say is that 2p+6h some builds in some areas can work better, yes, it is true.

If what you want to say is that 6 or 8 discords are bad because it isn't the best damage and you will gimp overall team functions/builds to run 1 skill that, while having spike potential, as little else, then, yes, you are correct.

If what you want to say is that the pvx discorday sucks because it has 2 restoration necros, then, yes you are correct.

This is just correct, argument summed up in one post, there is no doubt that discord works. Is it optimal for all areas in all circumstances? no.
Its not as good as some people believe or would have you believe.

I would like to add that Racway (though not the paragon heroes i personally would run) also falls into the sabway/discord effective team builds.

Utilizing the leadership attribute and a few key shouts (though again not in all areas) makes it one of the most powerfull hero builds in use today.

workable builds in general, they can be improved upon or even swapped out depending on the area you are in.

Improvavel · Jun 03, 2009, 01:05 AM // 01:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Riven

I would like to add that Racway (though not the paragon heroes i personally would run) also falls into the sabway/discord effective team builds.

Utilizing the leadership attribute and a few key shouts (though again not in all areas) makes it one of the most powerfull hero builds in use today.

I disagree a bit.

Racway is much more vulnerable being based in physical damage, that while being powerful is a lot easier to gimp.

Racway suffers from only 2 para heroes and lack of hex removal in henchmen.

In areas where hexes or general physical shutdown isn't a problem though, it works really well.

The Riven · Jun 03, 2009, 01:21 AM // 01:21

Racway (lol i hate calling a paragon team racway) Does suffer from only 2 para heros, i was sorely disappointed when they decided to add a mox instead of an additional paragon hero, but my general point was its a workable viable build.

AtomicMew · Jun 03, 2009, 04:34 AM // 04:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

On a H/H?

Waste of healing.

A curses necro will provide much more and will boost damage by minions/physical henchies/you if you are a physical and will allow you to not be worried how to get hexes and/or conditions to prime discord.

I always die a bit when I see a warrior/derv/assassin running AP caller.

If on the other hand you are a curses necro, I bet you can get something more creative than more healing (healing is only as good).

My discord necros are more of a variation of old sabs.

As for 2 players variant, you don't need that much defense. It is quite easy to slot some physical power/shutdown/interrupts with 4 other slots.

I meant for 2-man, not H/H.

As far as 2 resto healers, for me, that's pretty core in my setup. In the 2 man PvX, I'd rather ditch the N/Mo heal prayers rather a resto, if only for the fact that having 2 different spirits makes them both much more effective.

As far as bringing along shutdown/util, you are absolutely correct. However, it's not needed in most places at all, generally you would hardly notice a difference in speed otherwise, and full discord still kicks the pants off of physway in terms of speed, if only because of minions.

Xenomortis · Jun 03, 2009, 10:41 AM // 10:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

I'm tldr the entire last page. I'm assuming it's cthon et al just re-writing the same flawed arguments that have been time and again debunked.

Your arrogance drives me (and I suspect many others) mad. You have not debunked anything, you just make contradictions to statements. People arguing against you may be no better, but that does not mean your arguments are superior.

In short, it's statements like these that make me very disinclined to read anything else you have to say.

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

@ Xeno: You are just wrong saying that MoP does not work well with discordway.

That's part of the reason I think there is misunderstanding. Physical (curse) buffs /MoP nuker works great with discordway. In fact, I'm going to say it works even better.

With H/H I have up to 20 minions out. (Fiends are ranged and trigger MoP just like paragons.) With 2 man it's possible to have nearly 40 minions and can have 2-3 MoPs going at once. I can prime a target with MoP even before I call AP on it.

What? Even if you prime a target with MoP and cast AP on it later, that target is going to die pretty quickly - long before you get much milage out of MoP. Minions don't attack quick enough to cover it, so your AoE damage is inferior. Fair enough, Fiends are quicker, but they're still slow.
If you cast it on an alternate target, odds are it's only minions attacking that target and again, your AoE damage is still subpar.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perfected Shadow

I was talking about henchies. Consider Aidan, he has Kindle arrows in 3 campaigns. Yes there are better ranger henchies in Factions but only there. Paragon hench is only in NF. I'm not saying physway H/H won't work with everyone, but I've had too much experience of melee hench scratching their asses walking back and forth trying to decide whether to attack or not.

Btw what is MB?

Sorry, I forget.

Prophecies is a bit of a bugger for giving us horribly incompatible henchmen. It has been a while since I have H/H any HM Prophecies area. I find Stefan to be better than Thom though, when it comes to attacking my called target, so I'd use him (despite the fact he's melee).
Factions blesses us with lots of henchmen choices, though irritatingly both Zho and Aidan have Kindle.
NF provides us with Sogolon, which is very nice.
EotN thankfully does away with Kindle Arrows.

MB = Minion Bomber - a minion master with (usually) Animate Bone Minions and Death Nova.

AtomicMew · Jun 03, 2009, 10:47 PM // 22:47

Quote:

Your arrogance drives me (and I suspect many others) mad. You have not debunked anything, you just make contradictions to statements. People arguing against you may be no better, but that does not mean your arguments are superior.

In short, it's statements like these that make me very disinclined to read anything else you have to say.

Actually, it's quite the opposite. There is no consistency in the "opposition's" argument. There's not even consistency between themselves (like how one vocal stated a physical can outdamage an AP caller).

You want to talk about arrogance? What is arrogant is thinking that you can theorycraft a build, not even really test it out, and say it is better than discordway, which is what ~90% of the rest of medium to hardcore players cut through PvE at utterly stupid, blazing fast speeds with. (Which admittedly, is not even ideal.)

-Moloch said he would post a 2 man "physway" build. He has not. The fact that he needed to think about how to build a 2 man physway should tell you something.

-Cthon et al have continue to state that moloch has "proved" physway to be better because a physical can auto attack with more DPS than discord can (which is ONE skill... cmon). First of all, the comparison was biased to begin with. Like it's really realistic to have barbs on every target, right? Even orders is not up all the time! (it's impossible given the cast times with D/N).

If you believe that the above "proves" physway to be better, the only thing you haved proved is that you are not thinking! I've stated that a discorder has 7 other slots to bring whatever utility it wants, whereas a physical is generally locked in to a single task. Yeah, a paragon can bring shouts or whatever, but that is nothing compared to what a discorder can do. Let me make this more concrete, because discordway can certainly play the numbers game too (the analysis is just a bit harder). For example: My discorder usually has ~5 fiends out, and explodes a bone minion every 5 seconds (a guess). Under barbs, the 5 fiends are doing ~50 DPS. Minion bombing is doing 20 AoE DPS. Discord is probably doing 20 DPS. Total, that's 90 DPS with a little AoE and not even including orders!

LOLOL, I have a bigger number, therefore, I win </same reasoning>

The fact is, it's even more complicated than that. The same discorder is providing PS and Aegis, which negates HUGE amounts of damage with very little hero-time required.

Quote:

Even if you prime a target with MoP and cast AP on it later, that target is going to die pretty quickly - long before you get much milage out of MoP. Minions don't attack quick enough to cover it, so your AoE damage is inferior. Fair enough, Fiends are quicker, but they're still slow.
If you cast it on an alternate target, odds are it's only minions attacking that target and again, your AoE damage is still subpar.

No need to beat around the bush. Fiends attack slower than paras. In fact, they attack slightly faster than twice as slow. So in terms of triggering MoP, 2 fiend is equivalent to 1 para. Now, considering one discord/MM conservatively has at least 5 fiends most of the time, how do you figure that discordway does less AoE, when discordway generally has twice as many minions as physway?

Your argument doesn't make sense since discordway has more MoP triggers than physway due to minions. Your argument also relies on the fact that discordway has too MUCH single target DPS...? First of all, I thought cthon et al argued that physway has more single target DPS? There are so many things wrong with that train of thought, I just don't know exactly where to begin. Let's see... discordway has more MoP triggers that don't do much single target damage (e.g. minions) therefore doing more AoE. Even if the argument were somehow true, you could just disable/manual discord so the target doesn't die too fast. Realistically, it just never matters... at all.

Just think about it again:
-discordway can trigger MoP more... yet does too much single target DPS.
-Physway triggers MoP less yet it was argued has MORE single target DPS.

And you say that discordway is bad because it kills the MoP target too fast...? This kind of reasoning is so infuriating. It's a complete double standard and just shows an elitist "arrogant" attitude.

Xenomortis · Jun 03, 2009, 11:13 PM // 23:13

How is it, you, unlike any other player I have ever met, can coordinate all of those minions onto your primed target with MoP?

Your comparison is also unfair - you state that Discord will trigger MoP more than physway; it won't, as the majority of the single target damage is coming from Discord. Discord will never trigger MoP. As Discord is the primary reason the target dies quickly, there will be fewer physical attacks on that target (there just isn't enough time for them).
With Physway, the primary source of single target damage are physical attacks and Barbs (the latter is a result of the former). This means MoP will trigger a lot more.

I am not saying Discord is bad. I am not saying it is bad because the MoP triggers are fewer. I'm trying to argue why I believe Discord provides much less AoE DPS than the setup I described.

Now, I accept I may be completely wrong. However, I have not seen anything to suggest otherwise. I have run Discord teams and I have found them to be inferior - this may be a result of several things (my builds were probably less than optimal for one).
I construct my arguments trying to explain why I believe this to be the case. If you can post an argument that I cannot disagree with (and you havn't done that fully as yet), then I will seriously examine the position I am currently adopting.

I could probably explain this better (and certainly, I should probably rewrite this), but I'm tired and a little busy.

AtomicMew · Jun 03, 2009, 11:54 PM // 23:54

Fair enough.

My understanding of how minions work is not complete, but I'm pretty sure they put some weight into what target you call. At any rate, they at least attack the SAME target. So even if they do not attack your target, spike it with Finish Him! and switch to a new target. It's been my experience that I have no problem getting MoP and fiends to converge on the same target.

You say that the damage type matters (discord being a spell, physway being physical). That's true, but when you factor in fiends/minions, discordway hits FASTER with LESS single target damage, according to Moloch's very own argument.

Of course, this is assuming bone fiends single target damage is negligable, which I don't actually to be true or not. Even if it isn't true, as I stated, you could simply disable discord, further increasing the amount of AoE to single target DPS, WITHOUT decreasing the amount of AoE. This is not possible with physway.

Furthermore, if you are holding AoE as the holy grail of build design, you need to take into account the fact that discordway has way more bone minions exploding all over the place, which is not negligable!

For 2 man dway, a standing army of 40 minions is easily maintainable in many, if not most VQs.

Carinae · Jun 04, 2009, 05:36 AM // 05:36

I made a relevant post to this thread here: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...0377764&page=2

AtomicMew · Jun 04, 2009, 07:18 AM // 07:18

I replied in that thread, but since it is slightly off-topic there, I'll repost here:

Quote:

That is so wrong it's beyond words.

Onto the rest of your comments:

A single Bone Fiend averages ~14.5 DPS versus 60AL by itself. So, a MM with 10 Fiends averages ~145 DPS.....spread against ALL targets. Assuming a mob size of 6 that comes to ~24.1 DPS per enemy.

That's pressure, not DPS.

You have never used fiends, have you?

They attack the SAME TARGET. The only time they don't is the time you spawn them. Otherwise they roll in a tight formation and you can easily combo them with barbs/MoP.

Carinae... I'm saying this because I care about people, even if they're anonymous over an internet board (lol). I would like to see you simply admit you are wrong. In Guild Wars, bone fiends simply do not work like the way you described. This isn't the first time you have said something that is just outright impossible and assumed something that is just not the way Guild Wars worked, and at the same time acted like you knew it all. (Like saying how a physical can out DPS a MoP nuker) Show that you are better than what you have previously shown in other threads.

Carinae · Jun 04, 2009, 07:56 AM // 07:56

Fiends, like all minions, attack the target you are attacking unless they are already aggroed. Calling the target doesn't help. Wanding it does. If they are already aggroed, keep wanding the target so that when they do lose aggro, for any reason, they will acquire the target you specify.

Fiends do not all attack the same target, but being ranged does make them somewhat more amenable to target selection.

Bringing MoP/Barbs into the issue when discussing minion DPS borders on intellectual dishonesty because:

1) A physical player can trigger MoP/Barbs as well.
2) You were specifically talking about minion DPS without buffers...and had your numbers wrong to boot.

Furthermore, fiends from 3 different MMs aren't going to all cluster up together, let alone all attack the same target. Finally, the DPS numbers I specify are for 10 fiend armies, not hero MB armies, which of course are going to be MUCH lower. Bastardized Discord MB hero are going to fair even worse.

You can't be 'quick' if the heroes are spamming Death Nova, and if they aren't you're giving up one of your key sources of damage. You've got 3 for sure: Discord, Death Nova and base minion damage.

Count AP/MoP as a fourth damage source, but that's not specific to Discord. An argument could be made that 40 minions triggers MoP more than physicals. I don't know that that works out significantly in either direction. Not all the minions will be focused on the target, and all the physicals most likely will be focused. But your also locking in 4 slots to minions and necessarily Death Magic....a significant investment for uncertain results.

Your arguments that minions draw off hexes and AoE is correct, but again, is misleading and not specific to Discord. Even a single MM will have the same effect, as enemies are drawn to minions due to their hp and armor level.

AtomicMew · Jun 04, 2009, 08:26 PM // 20:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

Fiends, like all minions, attack the target you are attacking unless they are already aggroed. Calling the target doesn't help. Wanding it does. If they are already aggroed, keep wanding the target so that when they do lose aggro, for any reason, they will acquire the target you specify.

Fiends do not all attack the same target, but being ranged does make them somewhat more amenable to target selection.

More often than not, they attack the same target because they are in a tight formation. If they respond to wanding, you are only further proving my point. Just admit you are wrong.

Quote:

Bringing MoP/Barbs into the issue when discussing minion DPS borders on intellectual dishonesty because:

1) A physical player can trigger MoP/Barbs as well.
2) You were specifically talking about minion DPS without buffers...and had your numbers wrong to boot.

1) A single physical will trigger MoP 3 to 4 times less. I also was not the one to bring up MoP, Xeno was. I didn't "bring" it in to the discussion, no matter how much you try to accuse me of intellectual dishonest with your lies.
2) The numbers are wrong because I CBA to figure out how armor and HM affects the DPS. Neither can you (your numbers are wrong too.)

Quote:

Furthermore, fiends from 3 different MMs aren't going to all cluster up together, let alone all attack the same target. Finally, the DPS numbers I specify are for 10 fiend armies, not hero MB armies, which of course are going to be MUCH lower. Bastardized Discord MB hero are going to fair even worse.

WRONG. I frequently roll with nearly 40 minions 2-man. If I cared, I easily keep up close to 40 with manual BOTM. Your statement here is directly counter to something I can easily prove with screenshots from MANY areas.

Quote:

Count AP/MoP as a fourth damage source, but that's not specific to Discord. An argument could be made that 40 minions triggers MoP more than physicals. I don't know that that works out significantly in either direction. Not all the minions will be focused on the target, and all the physicals most likely will be focused. But your also locking in 4 slots to minions and necessarily Death Magic....a significant investment for uncertain results.

The only sensible thing you have stated thus far. To be more concrete: even if only 1/4 of your minion army attacks your target, that's still equivalent to anywhere from 3-6 physicals for MoP.

Quote:

Your arguments that minions draw off hexes and AoE is correct, but again, is misleading and not specific to Discord. Even a single MM will have the same effect, as enemies are drawn to minions due to their hp and armor level.

This is completely off-topic. The reply was based on the issue of minion vs. no minions. NOT more minions vs. minions.

Even still, what you said is completely incorrect. More minions mean more distractions and body blocking for the enemy. It's just a question of numbers, it's really that simple.

Xenomortis · Jun 04, 2009, 10:47 PM // 22:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

I also was not the one to bring up MoP, Xeno was. I didn't "bring" it in to the discussion...

I think I did, but I can't be bothered to go check.
I recall arguing that a physical oriented team would have comparable single target damage to Discord and, as a result of MoP, more AoE damage.
I argued that even if a Discord team did bring MoP, they would not get the same mileage out of it and their AoE damage would be less.
traversc then stated that I was wrong. I've argued against his argument.
And some more stuff happened...